Philosophy,+Debate+on+Truth

Debate on Truth
This debate was held at RJK between several members and it proved very stimulating and deserved to be documented since it presents some very good points on every side.


 * AlatarielEledhwen**

What is evil?


 * Cody**

Evil is located in our mind. The part that enables judgment. No action is labeled officially as Evil or Good. However, through common sense and using good judgment.


 * Ian Mundi**

You know, there are very few things I would consider downright evil, most things are of many shades of grey, although varying between shades of dark and light. It is only things at the very, very extreme of the dark I would catagorize as fully evil. Rape, killing for the sake of killing, destruction for no purpose other then to damage others, doing truly bad and harmfull things to others with no reconcilation for them in your own mind beyond simple pleasure in doing so. Besides those, there is little I would classify as comletely good, or evil. So, ultimately, Evil is a perspective. Some people, would even catagorize what I beleive as innately evil, as something else, and for them it would not be completely dark, further testifying to the fact that evil is perspective. Humans, have an innate repulsion to doing something that, is unreconciably evil. Humans, can know something that they are doing is bad, but, they can make is less so, at least in their own heads, by making excuses. If they are truly desperate, any paltry excuse will do, if at least to let themselves know they are not completely evil.


 * Sam)(ael**

Evil is not a point of view and it is not a part of your mind either. If you believe that than you must understand that you are already a large step closer to their way of thinking. You don't know how many sith realists I have heard say those exact words right before they do something absolutely wretched.

Evil is something you choose to do or choose to be, but it is not originally part of you. Through confusion and desires you can be twisted into something evil or choose to be evil when you know what it is.

If you don't believe that there are solid things that are right and wrong you should not be a part of ANY Jedi organization. Once you 'loosen' your morals they float around without control.


 * Cody**

Sam)(ael, what do you say is evil? Ala what do you say is evil? Everyone, what do you say is evil?

We will all have different points of view. Evil is not something set in stone, in fact gay people were thought as evil, now they are everyday people, because they are. Certain races were called evil, but now we realize they aren't. Evil IS a point of view and IS in your mind. I assure you though, that a lot of things are considered evil by most everyone.


 * Sam)(ael**

Yes but unlike both of you my morals DIDN'T shift with the times, and many people's don't. I think homosexuality is an __abomination__.

Don't get me wrong I love people, Gay or not, but I still think it is wrong and I will vote to block it every time.

Cody, if you have no definition of evil, than what DO you stand for? If evil is just a point of view then conversly Good MUST be a point of view as well. If you believe that anything is right, than usually it's opposite is wrong. If you question the validity of evil you are basically saying that there is also no good 'accept in your mind'.

Great people were great because they stood for something that was __right__ and __true__ **DESPITE** what was popular.

Being a Jedi is finding those truths that are absolutely solid and standing on them. Otherwise life is pointless. You exist like an animal, avoiding pain and trying to get as much pleasure and comfort as you can. You have to compete for everything.

I don't know about you but I have noticed that hidden in the backgroud is a higher way of living. And I choose not to be an animal. I choose not even to be a Human. I choose to be a Jedi.
 * Cody**

NOTHING IS LABELED AS GOOD OR EVIL PERTINENTLY.

Mankind has, threw the times, made claims of something being good, and of something being bad.

It is in the nature of mankind to label the things we encounter as good or evil, thus influencing people to do something beneficial and healthy instead of bad and unhealthy. Like people say, being fat is bad. They say that so people will monitor their intake and then chose to lose weight and live longer.

They say eating vegetables is good, so that people will eat them and will take in good things and ultimately live longer.

If you believe that things are set to good and bad, then you HAVE to believe people are bad. People make so many bad decisions, people kill each other, people are fat(Majority), people are unhealthy. But then again you can't say we are good either, because we have jsut as much bad as we do good. Everything does.

Nothing is pertinently good or evil. If you believe that just because someone chooses to be intimate with the same sex, they are evil, that is dense. If you think actions in general make something good or evil, that is dense. Deeply thinking, actions make you look one way or anther due to point of view, but nothing remains in the same impression by everyone.

Killing someone is evil, if they are defenseless and innocent. Killing someone to protect your life, life is good. Killing= Good and Bad depending on the situation and point of view.


 * Ian Mundi**

What you said Sam, about your views not changing and being set lose, there is a thing to that. Lets say, you make a decision, any decision. You hold that decision close to you, and you cherish it. Lets say a year later, you learn something important that would normally change your view on it. Are you saying that you would hold the same decision just because you do not like changing your points of view? I am not saying that it is not good to stand somewhere. You always need somewhere to stand, I mentioned that in my "sence of self" topic. But, just because you stand on it, does not mean you cannot be open to taking on a different point of view when new information comes up. Part of being a Jedi, is being able to take in all of the information you can, and use it to improve yourself, and your beleifs. Never cease to learn and take in new information on any subject, otherwise you are closing yourself out. You need to be able to change your stance on things. This does not mean you should change your stance in the bat of an eyelid, quite the opposite. The more important it is, the more it should take to change your view on it. You need to consider though the information you have, versus the imformation you have just attained. Also, at other times, it is ok to dissagree, but if it is not incredibly important, it is ok for peoples opinions to have not changed. I completely dissagree with you on homosexuality (even though I am straight) but, that is besides the point, and is not as important as many other things.


 * Sam)(ael**

You both bring up good points of view. Good questions. (this kind of conversation [without argument] is really healthy for the order I think.)

Starting With Ian: Actually I would change my point of view in favor of what I thought was right as soon as it became clear that it was right. I have actually developed a reputation for that where I live. I am very good at saying I was wrong and then changing what I was doing or saying. But I am not.

Cody: There are three kinds of things in this world. Evil, Good, and tools of Choice.

Take a sword for example. It can be used to commit the most vile evils, or to defend the purest cause. Depending on how you choose to use it. It is neutral because it is not evil or good until someone makes a choice with it. People are not evil either (or good for that matter) until they prove that nearly EVERY time they get a choice they will choose the evil options Or the good options in the cases of good people.

Now there are some things that have no 'good' options to choose from. Look at Meth. Is there a medical use for Meth? No. Does it do anything good for the people that use it? No. Does it promote any 'Good' choices? No. I consider Meth Evil. Not because it is some special kind of matter or because 'evil' from creation but because of it's affect on choice. The substances that are used to create Meth are innocent. They are not 'evil' from day one. But meth has no good options. It's very existence promotes evil choice and thus I group it with evil. Does that make sense? No matter how many ways you look at the Drug Meth you will not be able to escape the solid FACT that meth destroys people and creates misery and pain and fear and loss and the degredation of civilization among a thousand other crimes. Now if you don't think those things are evil than fine, you boggle my mind and I will probably consider you the first Alien I have ever met, but you know that those things are wrong in your heart and we all do.

This life operates upon a certain set of eternal principles. Like the invisible laws of physics that make the moon go round and the sun come up and your coffee smell like coffee. These principles do not change. We call these 'absolute truths' because no matter what kind of contacts you have in, no matter what you convince yourself the REAL truth is, no matter what you say, they are FACT. They remain solid. They do not rely upon your oppinion and frankly if they could care what you think, they wouldn't.

Great Philosophy is based upon the pursuit of these magical invisible laws of physics. Kindness for example just isn't in our nature. As humans we are still selfish for the most part, but the moment you start obeying the "law" of kindness you become more happy. It's solid fact that goes against most of modern opinion. Go figure. If you looked only inward like a Sith you would never be able to comprehend that kind of law.

Now splice things however you like. Not all things are evil or Good but your choices are rarely neutral. Which color for your drapes? Ok, neutral.

But the rammifications of what you eat will change your options for later. If you choose to eat a candy-bar it is not evil, but if you get addicted to sugar like most kids do, you may shorten your life a couple thousand candy-bars down the road. You risk addiction with any kind of Junk food and you limit your choices because eventually you become unfit. Why is healthy food good? Because it makes you healthy, giving you a bunch of great athletic options. It keeps you from being sick. It even exercises your self control, and you never risk getting addicted to carrots. Even if you did, they don't limit your options so go ahead!

The principles of health were valid and true before we even understood them. people ate way too much meat in the medieval age and they ate very few vegetables. It was just as unhealthy then as it is now but they thought meat was the best thing since the Axe. You might laugh at a prince from back then trying so hard to explain why meat was healthier, and believe me, most of them probably wouldn't believe you, but you would be right. That is solid fact.

Wisdom is the ability to identify these solid principals of happiness and use them for yourself and others. It is also the ability to avoid the pitfalls. And yes there is a right and wrong that does not change. I hope you find it or you will have a lot of fear in your life, adrift and alone. Because if there is no true good than there is nothing worth standing on and you are already in hell.

I have searched long and hard and I am absolutely sure that I don't know everything yet. Like Socrates I am constantly declaring that I know pretty much nothing in the grand scape of things, but the best test of a principle is to try it and measure your own results. And I only stand absolute on principals that **I** have **tested** __myself__.

In the instance of Homosexuality (which seems to be a hot subject here), I have a lot of Gay and lesbian friends. I eat lunch and work with several who know how I feel. It's not like I hate them or I treat these close friends of mine as animals or freaks. But i have carefully observed the principles involved and I am more sure by the day.


 * Cody**

Sam)(ael,

When you talked about the meth. You were talking about something that is labeled as bad because of the science behind it. When meth isn't used it isn't evil, it is just meth. Things we consider good and evil, like I already said, are to keep people healthy and alive. Doing drugs kills you, so people say it is evil. It is a substance, until it enters your system it is nothing dangerous, it isn't "Evil". Therefore, until scientific data confirmed it is bad for health, it wasn't deemed anything.

I just get angry when people say that certain races, certain sexual preferences,certain actions make a person or thing evil. For one, nothing about that claim of evil protects us in any way. someone says that Native Americans are evil, yet, you could hang around a Native American for your life and nothing would happen, because THEY AREN'T REALLY EVIL. Some people say that homosexuality is a sin and is evil, What proof is there? Yes, there are STD's, but, heterosexuals get them too.

NOTHING and I Mean NOTHING is Good or Evil in an absolute way. Dealing in absolutes puts you in a position to get confused and end up in a paradox that you will have a hell of a time getting around.

I agree, this discussion is very nice.Although I think one of us is a little mixed up.


 * AlatarielEledhwen**


 * **QUOTE** (Cody @ October 11, 2008 01:51 am) ||
 * NOTHING and I Mean NOTHING is Good or Evil in an absolute way. Dealing in absolutes puts you in a position to get confused and end up in a paradox that you will have a hell of a time getting around. ||

I see an absolute right there. You're saying things are always never completely good or evil.


 * Sam)(ael**

Cody we all have core beliefs despite our differences. We all agree on love even if many people turn their backs on it and choose hate. The fact is that love makes us happy. Compassion spreads that happiness infinitely accross the universe. Service to others brings hope and mutual love as well as growth.

These things are fact, even if not everyone will admit it.

The 'sith' of our world are the people who tell you that good and evil are just ideas. Cody, its a lie. Sith use good and evil as excuses to do whatever they like. They don't care whether it is wrong or right, they only see themselves. The short game.

Jedi see that we are all in this together. While one being sufferes alone the Galaxy cannot be balanced and our lives cannt be complete. By helping others we help ourselves. By teaching others we teach ourselves. By serving others we grow ourselves.

Good is not an animalistic concept of "what makes me feel good for the moment". Good is what promotes lasting happiness and growth for all of us. A better world for all. The absolute truths are principles we can live by that will ALWAYS lead us to happiness as a whole. And they include the pitfalls that always lead us to misery and regret. To unhappiness.

Good and evil should not be used for generalizations. That is also a sith trick. Native Americans are not Evil though some of them as people may be. Homosexuals are not evil though some of them as people may be. White people are not evil though some of them as people may be. But I believe homosexuality is evil because it does not lead to lasting happiness. My reasons are heart-felt and they have nothing to do with hatred or bias. I truely believe that homosexuals would have better happiness the other way. This is based on my own observation over years of long friendship. That is why I say what I do. I care, Not hate about them.

Step beyond the confusion. It is the same trap that Anakin fell for. Listen to the most simplistic whispers of your heart. Peace, love, care, happiness. They never lead you wrong. It is when you look at them as ideas that the sith can use them to twist your mind and heart. That is where love becomes jelousy, and obsession. Where peace becomes security which costs you your freedom, where peace can also become totalitarianism. Where compassion for others becomes self justification (doing evil "for others").

Good leads towards lasting pure happiness. Evil leads towards Misery, regret and unhappiness.


 * Juntah Reyan**

I feel I should point out that there is a potentially very large difference between the comparisons of good/bad and good/evil. I think most of you (excluding Sam)(ael, of course) are mixing the two up. Good and bad are subjective almost all of the time. Assuming I am a sane person (which I hope everyone here thinks I am... ), I could think stealing is bad, and to another sane person, trying to make his way through life, it could seem like the only way out, and therefore acceptable.

Going off of that, I would like to try to make the point that these comparisons can only be made between sane people. I know every sane, humane, and feeling human being knows murder, rape, mindless destruction and the ruining of lives by various means of abuse and influence, is wrong. Evil. Only someone who was out of their mind, or so numb they can't feel anything, would think that any of those things was right. There's something inside of all of us (be it the Force or what have you) that tells us those things are wrong. Evil.

While for some, absolute goods and evils may be few, there are always some, and most of those reach across civilizations in their impact (i.e., almost every society has come up with the conclusion that these things are wrong). Anyone who tries to operate off of the belief that there are no absolute truths has already taken the first step along the path leading to the Sith way of life.


 * Sam)(ael**

Only when Good and Evil become philosophical ideas can they be twisted. Anyone who stands over the corpse of someone they just murdered can feel just how evil what they did was. Anyone who steals feels guilt at least for a little while. On the other side of that coin, anyone who makes another person really happy can't help but feel a little residual happiness.

Truely evil people often turn everything into cold philosophical logic pieces and from that high precipice atop the mountain os supposed true self knowledge they destroy their morals while covering their eyes in return for the small addages of power they can get that way.