Teachings,+Do+Ends+justify+Means?

=Do Ends Justify Means?= (By Sam)(ael and Maltiok) (Return to Teachings)

(This conversation took place between Sam)(ael and Maltiok, as a training discussion on philosophy.) Maltiok : As you wish my Master. What Philosophy would you like to discuss?

Sam)(ael : Is a lie acceptable if it saves a thousand lives?

Maltiok : Depends. Whats the lie?

Sam)(ael : Pick one and tell me why it is or is not acceptable.

Maltiok : In the dark knight. When batman told gordon to lie and say that batman killed the people instead of harvey dent. That was acceptable and right.

Sam)(ael : Good example, not true. If the lie was uncovered as all things are it would do even worse damage, and make him closer to thescum he fights. It is like letting yourself lean forward too far in a duel and a lie is wrong no matter what the cause. What do you think?

Maltiok : By doing that he Kept dozens of convicts in jail and spared many from suffering. And he knew the truth would come out one day. But it gave him time to prepare.

Sam)(ael : Yes, but it was still nothing he could not handle. The fact is that he degraded the side if good more by lying. Being an Exalted hero is not a commodity to trade. By making that 'Sacrifice' he set a price on what is right. That means that right is no longer a principle and for the right price he would switch sides.

Maltiok : I think you believe in Purity and that a lie is a lie no matter.

Sam)(ael : I am pushing you. You took anti-hero, I took Exalted Hero.

Maltiok : Thats not true. He sacrificed himself and gave up the good credit he had earned so that he could prepare for an evil better future.

Sam)(ael : Good is not a commodity. You cannot barter is away for anything in the world, because the world does not last. If you damage the good in you, you only weaken the universal force of good. Evil does not weaken when you are prepared. Evil weakens when you are good and will not be anything else for any reason.

Maltiok : He didn't damage it. He preserved good in the future. He insured that there would be a good to protect in that future.

Maltiok : However as jedi we must be prepared. Especially as Gray Jedi.

Sam)(ael : He let gordon lie. If he had said the lie himself would you feel differently?

Maltiok : Yes it would put a flaw in the tactic. By getting gorden to do it. He insured that it was believable.

Sam)(ael : Smart, but if you are willing to give up your integrity for something here you will have to count on going to hell. What do you think of that?

Maltiok : I think that if good in the future is saved and people get a reprieve to repair. My person means nothing. I am a servant of the force not its master.

Sam)(ael : Honesty is too valuable to trade for a cheap break.

Sam)(ael : Ok, now what is this 'good' you speak of saving?

(Breif other question)

Maltiok : Anyways. He protected those who would stand up in the future against evil. He gave up his personal for others.

Sam)(ael : He sacrificed something that he was trying to preserve. It is a clever trick, but still a trick.

Maltiok : And a trick that worked. He gambled and won. Are we so noble that you and I wouldnt have done the same?

Sam)(ael : Not a gamble. The difference in reality is that heroes like batman can live forever static and never pay the price a real person would for what was done.

Maltiok : And yet as the saying goes great men arnt great people. And sometimes as on this case the opposite.

Sam)(ael : Even in some of his later comics batman became and old man addicted to what he was doing and left with nothing else. Evil did not die. Only his good diminished.

Maltiok : And yet his legend. His sacrifice spawned the teen titans, nightwing, huntress, and a new batman.

Sam)(ael : True, but neither of us are really men now are we?

Maltiok : Which means we know what it means to sacrifice ourselves for something. I did it for my people.

Sam)(ael : But his soul? I am not saying he would lose it on a lie, but on a bigger trade? The later heroes would have made it somehow. The hand up was not his job.

Maltiok : And its not our job to do the same. Its not required that we do it. We do because we are driven to. Its in our blood and bone to do that. Batman was a gray Jedi.

Sam)(ael : Funny, but no matter how many times I die, evil still exists and innocents still die. Perhaps the real battle is not won in physical ground. Maybe it is in the hearts of individuals. In their actions.

Maltiok : Yet good hasn't died yet. It has existed through even the worst evils.

Sam)(ael : Batman was definitely a Gray Jedi. So what conclusion does that leave you with about Gray Jedi?

Maltiok : That they walk the ultimate line. They achieve greatness yet strive to make good at that. They are symbols of the sacrifice and pain in service of good.

Sam)(ael : Including the men turned evil trying to sell their souls for a victory.

Maltiok : And yet men who gave their own up for good are out there too. They are rare but they are remembered more than those who are evil

Sam)(ael : But can it last forever? Can it be meaningful after thay have nothing to give?

Maltiok : Yes. Because they give the idea to the next generation. Even we immortals know that true immortality is remembrance.

Sam)(ael : I start to think differently. I give for ages. Why can I not give and retain my honor and purity such as they are? And what is left when I can finally pass on?

Maltiok : Because sacrifice demands all. Especially of us. We contain limitless power. Thus we sacrifice limitlessly.

Sam)(ael : But character is not limitless. Though it cannot buy things it can be spent. And when it ends out your soul dies with or without and immortal body.

Maltiok : And yet it is demanded. We are always at the brink of oblivion. Thats what gives us power.

Sam)(ael : Do you know how many true Gray Jedi there were before me?

Maltiok : 3

Sam)(ael : No, There were 22. Do you know how many are still alive in the 40 or so years since star wars inspired us?

Maltiok : 2-3

Sam)(ael : As far as I can tell 2. One betrayed everything and I am what is left. Only two of the others died of old age. One died of cancer and the rest sacrificed right down into the grave. I have read what remains of their journals and they were thinking about purity and some of the mistakesand necessities of of Gray life.

Maltiok : Thats interesting. And you think Im unaware of these facts?

Sam)(ael : Well the information is secret enough, but yes I think you understand the fatality rate. I tink we both understand now.

Maltiok : Thats because they long for what they cannot have. We are born Gray Jedi. Its not what we want. Its what we are. Just another sacrifice to make.

Sam)(ael : There is a higher way. One where you can have it both ways. But it is much harder. So much more so. Anyway, we have completed this lesson.

Maltiok : I think we both understand the extreme sacrifice and maddening power.

Sam)(ael : Yes, we do.

(Return to Teachings)